Foresythe

Heraldry in the Republic of Ireland
Charles Melebeck
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Joined: 22 May 2014, 20:06

Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 03 Sep 2014, 15:08

I believe I've been confusing terms actually. I mean mantling and mantle! I am going to sit for the IAAH exams, really, I was better some years ago ;)
Just one thing: in Belgium, uses are quite different because of the country history! Radigues family, for example, probably came around 1500-1600 in so called Spanish Low-Countries, from Habsburg Spain, making use of heraldic traditions different than the one spread during the previous centuries on what is nowadays Belgium ground.

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JMcMillan
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Re: Foresythe

Postby JMcMillan » 03 Sep 2014, 15:59

The Wikipedia article is not entirely correct, but I don't have the patience to get into exchanges of edits and re-edits that would be triggered by correcting it. Needless to say, the entire subject is very contentious--literally, as there's been a decade of litigation in Scottish courts brought by people unhappy with the way two consecutive Lord Lyons dealt with the heraldic implications of the abolition of feudal tenure in Scotland in 2004.

In a nutshell:

Once upon a time, Scottish kings granted considerable parcels of land to important vassals packaged together with various rights and privileges that were attached to the land. There were different types of packages, but the basic one was the barony. What distinguished a barony from other feudal land-holdings was the right of the baron to exercise civil and criminal jurisdiction over his tenants. He also originally enjoyed the right to sit in parliament.

The right of all barons to sit in parliament was gradually abolished starting in 1427, and only those who had been granted titles of nobility, what we now know as peerages, thereafter had an automatic seat. The "minor" barons instead were allowed to elect two of their number from each county to represent them. It is worth noting that in the official records of the Scottish parliament, these representatives of the minor barons (by definition barons themselves) are not referred to by any title of dignity. In other words, while the major barons are referred as "Earl of X" and "Lord of Y," the representative barons are referred to simply as "John Doe of that Ilk," or "Sir Robert Roe of Inchroe."

Fast forward about 300 years. In the aftermath of the Jacobite rising of 1745, the British parliament enacted the Heritable Jurisdictions Act 1746, which stripped away the barons' jurisdiction over criminal offenses involving a punishment more severe than a 20 shilling fine, and over civil disputes involving damages exceeding 40 shillings.

Obviously, with inflation, the practical significance of this jurisdiction soon dwindled to practically nothing. According to a note by Lord Lyon David Sellar in one of the cases referred to above, by the 19th century the owners of these baronies (which still had other rights attached to them similar to those attached to manors in England) ceased to be referred to as "baron of Z," even colloquially. In other words, owning a barony was not considered to make someone a baron. The royal warrant of 1905 establishing official precedence in Scotland did not mention feudal barons at all, and actually used the English term "baron" for the rank of the peerage more correctly known in Scotland as "lord of parliament."

This only changed starting in the 1930s thanks mainly to the efforts of Thomas Innes of Learney, then Carrick Pursuivant of Arms and later Lord Lyon. He believed that the old institution of the feudal barony was an important part of Scottish history and almost single-handedly revived it. He turned the long-familiar "cap of maintenance" (a crimson cap turned up ermine), historically used as the basis for some crests, into a stand-alone element placed immediately above the shield like the coronet of a peer. He decided that the term "much honoured," found here and there in old charters, was the appropriate style of address for a feudal baron. And eventually he decided that the crimson robe with that some barons were shown wearing in medieval paintings was an appropriate backdrop for the arms of people owning feudal baronies. None of this has any historic pedigree; it was all a creation of the 1930s to 1950s.

The idea that owning a barony made you a baron naturally attracted status-seekers, and a thriving trade grew up around the sale of this vanity item. Under Scottish land law, the owner of a barony could sell off bits and pieces of the land while still retaining the baronial rights attached to the entirety of the barony. Eventually, trivial amounts of land (a few acres) could be sold for tens of thousands of pounds because they still had the barony attached to them. As a result, when the revived Scottish parliament abolished feudal tenure effective 28 Nov 2004, it was necessary to avoid enormous claims for compensation to permit the retention of the "dignity of baron" completely separate from any landholding. And that's where things are today.

The only heraldic recognition that Lord Lyon now gives the owners of baronies is that:
(a) ownership of a barony suffices to make the owner eligible for a grant of arms, even if he has no other connection to Scotland, and
(b) a gold-trimmed steel helmet is granted with the arms to denote the barony.

No feudo-baronial cap, no feudo-baronial mantle, although those who had these items granted by previous Lyons are still entitled to them, as are their heirs as long as they still own the "dignity of baron."

That all sounds complicated, but believe me, it's VERY simplified.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Charles Melebeck
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Joined: 22 May 2014, 20:06

Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 03 Sep 2014, 20:17

Mister Grreen,

Thank you for the link, I already searched the book some days ago and I am going to order it when I will be back from holidays! Being preparing my final dissertation for Masters degree, that takes a lot of time obviously, could you perhaps tell me how long it takes on average to complete the whole formation? I want to do it as seriously as possible that's why I would like to start it at the best moment :)
Thank you.

Ryan Shuflin
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: Foresythe

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 09 Sep 2014, 14:31

So your question has nothing to do with the Foresythe Saga?

Charles Melebeck
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Joined: 22 May 2014, 20:06

Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 12 Sep 2014, 14:02

:D no I am sincery afraid it doesn't ;)

Charles Melebeck
Posts: 16
Joined: 22 May 2014, 20:06

Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 12 Sep 2014, 14:22

Which from Bouttel's and Fox-Davies's do you think is the best? I noticed what was written on IAAH main page, but I am looking for different points of view, indeed, most English-speaking heraldry sites advise Bouttel's, but if Davies's is better classified here then...

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Chris Green
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Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: Foresythe

Postby Chris Green » 12 Sep 2014, 15:16

Charles Melebeck wrote:Which from Bouttel's and Fox-Davies's do you think is the best? I noticed what was written on IAAH main page, but I am looking for different points of view, indeed, most English-speaking heraldry sites advise Bouttel's, but if Davies's is better classified here then...


Boutell is more accessible, particularly to those whose first language is not English. It has also been revised, most recently by Brooke-Little, to include post-WW2 material. I have both but refer to Boutell ten times more often than F-D.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

Charles Melebeck
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Joined: 22 May 2014, 20:06

Re: Foresythe

Postby Charles Melebeck » 12 Sep 2014, 15:27

Let choose it then! Thank you. Who do I have to contact to sit for first examination?

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Chris Green
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Re: Foresythe

Postby Chris Green » 12 Sep 2014, 16:42

Charles Melebeck wrote:Let choose it then! Thank you. Who do I have to contact to sit for first examination?


Chas Charles-Dunne.
Chris Green
IAAH President

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