Countries with an establshed nobility?

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Leonardo Almeida
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Leonardo Almeida » 07 Sep 2013, 03:01

During the Empire of Brazil (1822-1889), the nobility was ad personam i.e. not hereditary and, with rare exceptions, bought. In the early year of the Republic, the extinct titles were used as courtesy title. A famous example is the Baron of Rio Branco, that served several terms as minister of Foreign Affairs and is a kind of national hero.

During the time the Portuguese courts were fixed at Rio de Janeiro (1808-1821), hundreds of nobility titles were created (the money was important to kingdom's budget). Those are hereditary, but aren't currently recognized by Portugal or Brazil.

A curious case is Lord Cochrane, that gained the title of Marquess of Maranhão by Emperor Pedro I; although the title was ad personam at Brazil, his descendants still use it, in the United Kingdom. His arms are marquess of Maranhão are identical to those of earl of Dundonald or chief of Clan Cochrane.

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Chris Green
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Chris Green » 07 Sep 2013, 05:52

The unquartered Dundonald (Cochrane) arms are: Argent a chevron gules between three boars' heads couped close azure. The arms granted by Emperor Pedro of Brazil to Thomas, Lord Cochrane (the future 10th Earl) are said in some sources to have been the same (although as the first son of the then 9th Earl his Scottish arms should have been differenced) and in others "similar".

The depiction of the Maranhao arms in Wiki seems to confuse a boar's head couped close (with the typical tusks protruding from the lower jaw) with a wolf's head couped at the neck - but with boar's tusks - and sable rather than azure (which, if correct, might be a sufficient difference from his father's arms).

Image

Leonardo: Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the original Brazilian blazon.

I can find no evidence (yet) that suggests that the Dundonalds used or claimed the title Marquis of Maranhao following the 10th Earl's death. The 1868 Debrett refers to the title in connection with the 11th Earl's father but does not ascribe it to the son.

For anyone who enjoys the works of C S Forester and Patrick O'Brian, I can highly recommend Donald Thomas's "Cochrane Britannia's Sea Wolf" (ISBN 0-304-35659-X). Cochrane's life was simply larger than life.
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Leonardo Almeida
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Leonardo Almeida » 07 Sep 2013, 16:22

According to the Archivo Nobiliarchico Brasileiro, a collectanea by Lord Smith de Vasconcellos (the same used by Wikipedia designers), the arms are "Argent, a chevron gules between three boar heads sable". No indication if the heads are couped close, erased, etc. But we have to take some things in point:
  1. The first king of arms died with mental illness, and all the registries of the reign of Pedro I are disappeared. So the blazon of Lord Cochrane is a reconstruction by the second king of arms and/or Baron of Vasconcellos.
  2. The differentiation doesn't occur like in British heraldry. All the descendants of a legitimate heir (no matter the number of generations) have the right to use the plain arms. You can put a canton of "personal differentiation", but it's not binding.
  3. Baron of Vasconcellos' work is known to be the more complete work in Brazilian heraldry, but with many errors and omissions, corrected by later genealogists.

The Archivo Nobiliarchico Brasileiro lists the correct crest (the white horse), the correct supporters (the hounds) and the correct motto. Currently, the heads being azure instead of sable is considered a probable error.

Ryan Shuflin
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 08 Sep 2013, 21:24

Well, it doesn't really make sense for first born son of an Earl and the Chief of the Name to be granted arms. It would only make sense if there was some sort of augmentation of honour. It is possible, Lord Cochrane was granted arms out for the sake of form, and to record them in Brazil. Here is a picture of his grave in Westminster Image

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Leonardo Almeida
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Leonardo Almeida » 10 Sep 2014, 05:56

Re-reading the topic, aren't we dismissing the fact that he was marquess in Brazil, while heir of a "mere" earldom in UK? The new rank coul be considered, in this case, sufficient reason for a grant of arms.

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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 10 Sep 2014, 10:04

Chris Green wrote:
I can find no evidence (yet) that suggests that the Dundonalds used or claimed the title Marquis of Maranhao following the 10th Earl's death. The 1868 Debrett refers to the title in connection with the 11th Earl's father but does not ascribe it to the son.



The record of the present Earl in Burke's Peerage & Baronetage still makes mention of the foreign Marquisate however this title is not one of those receiving exemption from the revocation of George V who took the view that the use in his Realm of foreign titles of nobility should in due course be discontinued and, in 1932, he revoked the Royal Warrants which had allowed the use of the foreign dignitaries and titles. With a few exceptions (and then only for the sons and grandsons of the holders in 1932 and then expiring) official recognition is not given to the use of foreign titles by British citizens. Thus Dundonald can claim to be the holder of a foreign title but it is not recognised by Her Majesty and he would never therefore be accorded the rank of Marquis in his native land.
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JMcMillan
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby JMcMillan » 10 Sep 2014, 14:55

So, to sum up:
- The Earl of Dundonald is not Marquess of Maranhao in the UK because that title is not one of those to have been approved for use by royal warrant.
- He is not Marquess of Maranhao in Brazil because Brazilian titles of nobility were not hereditary.
- He is not Marquess of Maranhao in Portugal because Brazilian grants are not recognized in Portugal.

If he's not Marquess of Maranhao in someone's nobiliary system, is he Marquess of Maranhao at all?

Perhaps in Bunyoro Kitara or the Hutt River Principality.
Joseph McMillan
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Marcus Karlsson
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Marcus Karlsson » 17 Jul 2015, 20:23

Torsten Laneryd wrote:As far as I know they are no longer recognised under law.


Would disagree with you there the Riddarhuset is still a corporation under private law and as such are recognised by law. And I'am sure if you would for example call yourself Count Lewenhaupt and not be entitled to, that the real Lewenhaupts could sure you for fraud. And as for heraldry it is still not advisable to use noble attributes like rank crowns for a commoner.

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Torsten Laneryd
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Torsten Laneryd » 18 Jul 2015, 23:32

Marcus Karlsson wrote:
Would disagree with you there the Riddarhuset is still a corporation under private law and as such are recognised by law.


The government has no longer power or duties in handling the rules of that private organisation.

Therefore there is no need to have it in SFS=The Swedish Code of Statutes (the official publication of all new Swedish laws enacted by the Riksdag and ordinances issued by the Government).
Marcus Karlsson wrote:And I'am sure if you would for example call yourself Count Lewenhaupt and not be entitled to, that the real Lewenhaupts could sure you for fraud.

Of course you can not steal someones name but nobody can stop you from saying that you are a Count

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Chris Green
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Re: Countries with an establshed nobility?

Postby Chris Green » 19 Jul 2015, 04:21

Of course you can not steal someones name but nobody can stop you from saying that you are a Count


Sadly, stealing someone's name, indeed their complete identity, is all too common these days.

As for no-one stopping one from calling oneself a Count, that depends upon the purpose to which it is put. If you call yourself a Count as part of a plan to defraud individuals or corporations, that would be a criminal offence. Fortunately, in this digital age, constructing a plausible CV is not as easy as it once was. On the other hand, the naivety of both individuals and corporations when it comes to the aristocracy and its credit-worthiness knows no bounds.
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