Post removed.

General heraldry discussion forums covering all nations of the world.
User avatar
Martin Goldstraw
Site Admin
Posts: 1120
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 17:27
Location: Shropshire, England.
Contact:

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Martin Goldstraw » 18 Nov 2014, 10:06

andrewkerensky wrote:So I queried the Court of Lyon again about why I was unable to apply for a Coat of Arms directly from them, not that I expected any joy and they explained they do not like to 'invade' south of the border in reference to jurisdiction by granting arms but where pleased to hear I was able to obtain arms from the 'South African State Herald'. So good to hear that the Court of Lyon recognise the BoH as a legitimate body in respect to Heraldry and the registration there of.


The test of recognition often comes upon attempted matriculation when someone with "foreign" arms finds themselves under the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court (for example moving to reside in Scotland) and wishes to continue to use their arms. Lyon Court closed the doors on Spanish registrations and, if I recall correctly, has recently stopped matriculating Irish granted arms. I believe that there may also be difficulties with Canadian arms simply because there is a difference in the destination of the arms etc.* Will Lyon record arms granted in South Africa (a matriculation) in his Register? I can't see any reason why not, but I'm not the Lord Lyon.

* I should say that I believe that despite the fact that there may be some difficulty in matriculating Canadian granted arms in Scotland, this is for possibly quite unique reasons (another topic altogether), they are nevertheless fully recognised by Lyon as arms emanating from a grant whereas Spanish arms "recorded" by the various Chronistas are not deemed to be grants and are most likely (in my humble opinion) seen as assumed arms which have been recorded in a private register.
Martin Goldstraw
Cheshire Heraldry
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 20 Nov 2014, 06:43

andrewkerensky wrote:
Martin Goldstraw wrote:Will Lyon record arms granted in South Africa (a matriculation) in his Register? I can't see any reason why not, but I'm not the Lord Lyon.


I recall reading somewhere (sorry can't reference it but think the info was gleaned fom Xmarksthescot.com) that Lyon will look favourably upon arms issued by the BoH. Not that it matters as I reside in North Yorkshire.


I should perhaps point out that the College of Arms would be unlikely to "look favourably" on a grant of arms to a citizen of England, residing within its jurisdiction, by the heraldic authority of a nation with which that person has no connection. Both the South African Bureau and the Spanish Cronistas seem to take a somewhat cavalier approach as to whether applicants have any link to their countries either by birth, residence or heritage.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 564
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby JMcMillan » 20 Nov 2014, 12:23

As I recall from a Q&A session with Lyon Clerk a year or so ago (and I may be recalling incorrectly, so don't take this as absolutely correct), Lyon will recognize arms registered by the SABH if the registrant had a real, tangible connection to South Africa. In other words, if a resident of South Africa with arms registered by the Chief Herald moves to Scotland and wants to matriculate his arms for use in Scotland, that is possible. He will not allow people to take advantage of the SABH's welcoming attitude to foreign applicants as a way of sneaking their arms into Lyon Register.

I don't recall ever hearing that Lyon had a problem with Irish grants. The College of Arms does (for reasons the speciousness of which I address in https://www.academia.edu/8346132/Legal_Authority_for_Irish_Arms), but in any case--as far as I know--has stopped registering foreign arms altogether, i.e. those not granted by one of HM officers of arms.

(The phrase "HM officers of arms" includes grants by the Chief Herald of Canada, notwithstanding that she serves a legally different majesty than the one served by the English and Scottish officers of arms. The College continues to have difficulty grappling with the concept of separation of the crowns of the UK and the other realms of which Elizabeth II is the monarch.)
Last edited by JMcMillan on 25 Feb 2016, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 564
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby JMcMillan » 20 Nov 2014, 12:33

Chris Green wrote:I should perhaps point out that the College of Arms would be unlikely to "look favourably" on a grant of arms to a citizen of England, residing within its jurisdiction, by the heraldic authority of a nation with which that person has no connection. Both the South African Bureau and the Spanish Cronistas seem to take a somewhat cavalier approach as to whether applicants have any link to their countries either by birth, residence or heritage.


This is undoubtedly true, but I feel compelled to point out that there is, legally, no longer any cronista recognized by the Spanish state. Whatever legal status the certificates issued by the late Vicente de Cadenas may have enjoyed (a matter of some contention), it is clear that those issued by the Marques de la Floresta have none, as he has never been duly appointed to such a position under Spanish law. He was appointed a cronista by the regional government of Castile and Leon, but the regions do not have authority over personal heraldry and therefore cannot commission an officer with authority to certify personal arms. According to the Spanish Council of State, La Floresta's remit legally extends only to municipal and similar heraldry.

(There are undoubtedly forum members who think it should be otherwise. My response is, "take it up with the Council of State, not me.")
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

Ryan Shuflin
Posts: 507
Joined: 26 Jul 2012, 13:00
Location: Germany

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Ryan Shuflin » 27 Nov 2014, 20:50

andrewkerensky wrote:I'd like to think one day I could also apply for a CoA's with the College of Arms but not today. My current financial commitments make it cost prohibitive where as at just a few hundred pounds the South African Herald is within my budget and thankfully their egalitarian policy means that I can have a registration of arms legally albeit I recognize some may find this distasteful. In the interim these discussions have been quite insightful and I look forward to developing my understanding of the subject.


Too bad the College doesn't have an easy payment plan.

User avatar
JMcMillan
Posts: 564
Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 22:33
Location: United States

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby JMcMillan » 28 Nov 2014, 04:14

Isn't the logic of an Englishman's buying a South African registration instead of an English grant of arms because the price of one is 1/20 the price of the other the same as if he bought a South African television license instead of a British one because it costs about 1/8 as much? If you're not going to use the arms or watch TV in South Africa, neither the registration nor the license are of much legal utility, and advocates of the traditional view of the English law of arms might well argue that bearing arms in England without a grant is just as illegal as watching TV without a license, albeit the College of Arms no longer operates coat of arms detection patrols ("visitations").

Of course, in my own country--where no licenses are required either to bear arms or watch television--there are nevertheless many people who will happily pay the English, Scottish, or Irish heralds for the privilege of doing what they are perfectly entitled to do free of charge. If you suggested to these folks that their TV experience would be not only better but more "real" if they only shelled out a couple of hundred dollars for a British TV license, they'd rightly think you were out of your mind.

I don't have any bone to pick with people who do any of this--it's not my money, after all--but the longer I study heraldry the more baffling this behavior seems.
Joseph McMillan
Alexandra, Virginia, USA

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 28 Nov 2014, 14:17

andrewkerensky wrote: I agree in principle but still wonder about it. England with its approach to heraldry has taken quite a deliberate approach of making armorial bearings rather unattainable for the average working man. Is that a good thing in this modern age? Is the registration of arms via South Africa or self assumed any less valid? Is a Doctor of medicine not a Dr if he travels or moves to another country or a religous minister? I can't really offer a validation but neither do I feel I have to.


I have made these points before and shall no doubt have to make them again soon: the cost of a grant of arms in England is less than the sums many people spend on their hobbies, considerably less than a keen supporter of a major football club would spend on season ticket/travel/shirts etc. Moreover the cost of a grant of arms is one-off, not annual. The College of Arms receives no funding from taxation or from the Crown. Its HQ in the City of London is not cheap to maintain and as well as the heralds there are researchers, archivists and support staff to be paid at rates that have to compete, at least to some degree, with those of City firms. The number of grants made annually is not elastic - the heralds can't bring down the cost by mass-production.

PS: Doctors of medicine are not automatically allowed to practice if they emigrate, particularly if they wish to do so in a country whose language they do not speak. Religious ministers who emigrate would only be allowed to work in churches of their own brand of Christianity - a CofE minister would not be accepted as a minister in the Russian Orthodox Church for example. In medieval times an English armiger whose arms were granted by and/or recognised as valid at a visitation by a herald would be accepted as an armiger throughout Europe. An Englishman who turned up in England bearing arms granted by a foreign monarch might have those arms accepted as valid - or not. Like the granting of nobility or knighthood by foreign monarchs, such goings-on tended to be viewed as a slight on the allegiance owed to one's King or Queen.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 29 Nov 2014, 07:35

it's imperative that traditions are upheld and maintained.


I agree. But that wasn't really my point. The South African Bureau survives by getting non-South Africans to use its services. Domestic demand would be unlikely to generate enough funds to keep the lights on. The College of Arms survives by charging the economic rate.

Subsidy from taxes is simply not an option. Imagine if the College had been funded by the Exchequer. In the present economic climate it would have been cut to the bone by the Treasury, possibly even closed down. (My former employers, the Foreign & Commonwealth Office, have had to close many Missions and reduce the rest; the armed forces are a shadow of their former strength.) What the College charges to keep its head above water is not some sort of plot against the working man or woman getting uppity with a coat of arms
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Chris Green
Posts: 2773
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 13:06
Location: Karlstad, Sweden

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Chris Green » 29 Nov 2014, 11:24

I have to wonder then why doesn't the college of arms relocate to cut its overheads?


I'm afraid I have no insight into whether this possibility has ever been discussed, though it certainly should have been. Most UK Government Departments have dispatched significant elements (but never all) of their operations to outer darkness (a.k.a. north of Watford). The problem the College has with relocation is that a lot of its functions are related to the Court, so sitting in "Little Midden on the Gloop" wouldn't be very sensible. Also as a relatively small office whose functionaries have overlapping functions and a constant need to discuss issues of the day, sending some out of London might save a bit of money but make smooth operation very difficult. On balance the status quo and the fee levels necessary to maintain it is probably the optimum solution. As I say, I don't have any inside info on College thinking, but my previous life as an Adviser to the FCO on effectiveness gives me clues as to why the status quo is the best solution - for now.
Chris Green
IAAH President

Apohypaton

User avatar
Chas Charles-Dunne
Posts: 624
Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 15:48
Location: England - TL 80102 93862
Contact:

Re: South African Bureau of Heraldry

Postby Chas Charles-Dunne » 29 Nov 2014, 11:27

Well, Lord Lyon and his staff are all civil servants and the Lyon Court and office are funded by the Exchequer. Moreover, the cost of a Scottish grant/matriculation is 2/3rds the cost of a CoA grant.
Regards
Chas
IAAH Fellow

Image


Return to “Heraldry”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest